We're kicking off this 4 part mini series on real life biz owners and their journeys to becoming magnetic with a killer episode featuring the gorgeous Krista Marie – business coach, photographer and host of the She Calls Her Shots Podcast.
Krista worked with me for 6 months and in that time, completely transformed her business from the inside out - literally. From shifting her mindset to redesigning her offers, increasing her pricing and rebranding.
Between the relatability of Krista's transparent share about her journey, the practical advice she drops and the inspiration she'll provide by being an example of what's possible, this episode is a must listen.
In less than hour we covered:
Do yourself a favour and grab a notebook before hitting play ;)
WORK WITH ME
Wanna know how we could work together? ↓
1:1 coaching: magneticbrand.co/personal-brand-coaching
Strategy intensives: magneticbrand.co/brand-strategy
Everything else: magneticbrand.co
Simply Magnetic, the 5 part audio course
Enroll for free at: simplymagnetic.co
CONNECT WITH KRISTA
Podcast: "She Calls Her Shots"
CONNECT WITH ME
LinkedIn: Kat Elizabeth
[00:00:00] Kat: I have such a treat in store for you with this episode, but also the three episodes that are going to follow because we are kicking off a mini series where we are going to dive into four stories of four past clients of mine and their unique. Journeys with me to becoming magnetic, to building or rebuilding their brands and businesses from the inside out.
[00:00:30] Now these four different women come from different backgrounds. They have, you know, they came to me at different stages of the journey. So from fairly early on into full-time entrepreneurship to. 10 years of doing this, and it's just gonna be so fascinating to see that, you know, the unique challenges that come up at those different phases, but also the universal ones.
[00:00:55] Those things that are just gonna keep coming back up just because we are human and realizing that we're. All going through the same things, and that will hopefully not only make you feel a little bit better about where you are, maybe give yourself a little bit more grace, a little bit more patience, but you're going to really look behind the scenes of some of the changes that they were making we're we're talking practical, strategic mindset, environmental, all of the things.
[00:01:24] So you will hopefully start to see your own brand and or business. With a different lens. And so this first guest is Kris Marie, and oh my goodness, I just love talking with her. And there is so much, so much gold to be gleaned from this episode. I mean, we talked about everything from, um, going from pushing through burnout and all of those shoulds, you know, running.
[00:01:53] Your business from a place of shoulds to her now finding ease, flow, and creative freedom. We talk about how a lack of obvious, you know, engagement and feedback does not mean that people aren't listening or paying attention to what you're sharing. We talk about the challenges of pricing, intangible services like coaching, especially if you know, you started as a service-based business provider, a business owner.
[00:02:21] Tangible deliverables and then the natural blocks that tend to get in the way when it comes time to raise your prices. We also touched on hoarding courses and knowing how to make aligned investments as a new business owner, landing clients marketing and building an email list the simple way and her.
[00:02:42] Effortless, organic, almost accidental rebrand that came as a result of all of the inner work that she was doing. Like seriously, we packed so much into a relatively short episode. So get ready to dive in and meet the gorgeous Krista Marie. So she is a business coach and photographer. You'll hear all about the details of that journey.
[00:03:04] Uh, during the episode, she's also the host of the, she calls her shots podcast and her. Thing is all around helping creatives ditch the overwhelm and build sustainable creative businesses by focusing on tactical strategies, habits, mindset, and confidence work so that they can actually see long-term growth.
[00:03:25] So that's enough for me. Let's just dive into the episode and, uh, meet Christa.
[00:03:32] Well, hello Krista and welcome to the podcast.
[00:03:35] Krista: Hello. I'm so thrilled to be here.
[00:03:37] Kat: Oh, this is really fun. So just the backstory for everyone so that we can set the scene. Krista and I actually connected first on her podcast, so I was coming onto her podcast, we kind of hit it off, had this funny feeling that we were like, Soul business mates or something like, there was just so many similarities. It was, It was almost creepy. And then Krista has ended up working with me.
[00:03:59] Krista: Yeah. Well, and I told you this too after our interview, it was just interesting timing because I had been working with a coach and our time was coming to an end and it just so happened it was around the time of our interview and there was so much that I was like, okay, I'm feeling this. I, I hear you universe.
[00:04:14] I was at a wedding that I was shooting and I like filled out. I got there early and I remember sitting in the car and I filled out the contact form on my phone and then I was like, sorry if any of this is short, I'm like filling this out on my phone.
[00:04:26] Kat: Oh my gosh, I forgot about that. And I was laughing so much cuz another way that we're similar. I was like, they were such incredibly like detailed answers for the fact that you were on your phone that I was like, okay, we are meant to be.
[00:04:37] But this is just a very cool full circle moment. We're obviously coming to the end of our coaching cycle, which is always a bittersweet time. But I feel like we've just had, I've been so excited for you as I've been banging on about and all of the growth and the breakthroughs that you've had and just the way you are starting 2023, it's just oh my goodness. Do you wanna give everyone a little bit of an idea of where you're at right now?
[00:05:00] And then, what you're working on, how you feeling, but then we'll kind of go backwards to what was going on when you met, and then we can dive into that journey a little bit.
[00:05:08] Krista: Yeah. It's funny you said that you're like, where you're starting 2023 and I like took this deep breath and it really feels like this is the deep breath that I needed inside my business. Yeah, so right now, I mean, to give a, I guess a quick little snapshot is I have been over the last couple of years kind of, coaching, wanting to coach more, figuring out. There's been a lot of figuring out, which, we'll go into the details later, but I finally feel like at this point I have clients that are, I mean, that are absolutely amazing that have come into my world through the podcast and through the content that I've put out.
[00:05:41] And it's amazing because I feel like I now have the clarity, the support that I need to be able to support those clients in a way that feels really good for me. Whereas I feel like before I kind of struggled with that and figuring out the identity of who, who am I as a coach? What do I help with? I feel like I've gotten so much clarity now that I feel like I am just in the weeds with them and doing all the things that I can do to support them, and it feels really good.
[00:06:04] And yeah, I've made a lot of shifts around my photography side of my business. I'm feeling a lot more comfortable about where I'm at there and the growth that I'm having there. But I think the biggest transition that I've had, it's all been internal, which probably isn't really a surprise to anyone who's been in business. Cause a lot of the struggles that we have are a lot of internal shifts.
[00:06:24] Like the couple days this past week, now that it's finally not raining here anymore, I've been taking time out of my day regardless of how productive I felt or how I've been feeling. And I'm taking 45 minutes to an hour to go outside and walk. I listen to like meditative music. I listen to any sort of law of attraction, meditation, manifesting whatever but it like has really helped to ground me and put me in a place of making sure that I'm gonna choose to create from a space of feeling good.
[00:06:50] I'm not gonna create anymore from this space of wanting and needing and like fear of what's gonna happen because the, I spent so much time, which we'll get into living in that space, and I was like, this just doesn't serve me on any level. And so, yeah, this just, I feel like everything right now has been this like deep breath of fresh air that's just okay, this feels good. This feels like where I'm supposed to be.
[00:07:14] Kat: Okay, I've already got goosebumps. I'm obviously very excited about this chat, and I think one of the reasons . Is like what you're talking about is just so universally relatable. It's just incredible how many of us will get into business to have that experience of like flow and creativity and okay, I'm finally doing the thing that I wanna do, and before you know it, you're just like sucked into this whirlwind of anxiety and overwhelm and pushing and forcing and panicking, and you very quickly lose sight of why you're even doing what you were doing and whether it's even worth continuing.
[00:07:51] You're like, is it me? Is it entrepreneurship? What is the real problem here? And we can get very in our heads and think it is us, which yes, we need to do some internal shifts. But as you've learned, it's not that any of us have anything wrong with us. It's just the way that we're approaching things, which is like also fed by what we're hearing every single day and seeing on our feeds and how we assume we're supposed to run our businesses.
[00:08:15] Krista: And also the hard part of accepting that every single season, the struggles that were included has you know, this universally, I need to go through the things I'm going through to get to where I wanna go. But when you're in that moment and you feel like you are worlds away from where you wanna go, it's very hard to be like, "this is serving me in some way. This is helpful". Right.
[00:08:35] And it's like... You gotta get through all of that to be able to find the flow that works for you. Because I feel like for so long we try and we look for the flow. We try and force the flow. Like I know that this is where I wanna go, so how can I implement the steps to get there? When in reality what you actually need to do is like just go through all of the things that are eventually gonna get you in the flow, but there's no magic bullet to get you there.
[00:08:58] Kat: ...and because of the pain and the discomfort of that uncertainty and not being there yet, we just wanna get out of it as quickly as possible. And then the cycle continues.
[00:09:07] Krista: Why you need a coach
[00:09:09] Kat: It's been said, yeah. Okay. Let's now go back in time to when we were first chatting on your podcast. And I mean, I remember bits and pieces of what you were talking about being caught up in that cycle. But can I guess in your own words, what was going on? Both internally, but also in what results were you getting in your business and, whether it was like financially or clients or ... give us the nutshell!
[00:09:32] Krista: Yeah. So at that point in time, I think I had been doing one-on-one coaching for about a year. I was working with one, maybe two clients, I can't remember. So I was still very pretty new. I mean, I've still only been doing it for two years, but now I'm working with five clients. So it's like, grown pretty exponentially from where I was then to where I am now.
[00:09:49] But at the time coaching was all very new to me. I had been doing the podcast which was great. Well, that was great for so many levels for me. It also pushed me outta my comfort zone to actually work with someone who would help me grow. The podcast about podcast manager who put me on shows, got people for my shows, really.
[00:10:05] Put a fire under me to make sure that like episodes were recorded, things were being released. So that in itself was like a really big growth moment for me. So I feel like that was starting to take shape. But internally, or like how I thought about the coaching side of my business or my business, things just felt all over the place.
[00:10:24] If someone asked me, what do you do? I struggled to actually tell them what it is that I did. I was working with a coach. at the time was trying, like helping me. I was building a membership. I was in that space where you're trying to figure out what it is that you're meant to be doing. And so you try this and you try this, and you try this, and you try this, and you try all these things, and some of them feel good, some of them feel really uncomfortable.
[00:10:49] And the ones that feel really uncomfortable, you don't know if... Does this just feel uncomfortable because I'm new at it and I need to keep going at it? Or does this feel uncomfortable because this maybe isn't what I'm supposed to be doing and I keep putting in effort and time and energy for this thing that is clearly not meant for me to be doing.
[00:11:07] So I feel like I was in that space of trial and error, which I feel like we all kind of have to... we all have to go through. But the interesting thing is that when we started working together, I had this idea of where I wanted to go. I had a very clear picture of what I thought it was going to look like.
[00:11:22] And I feel like for the first month or two, you know, and also anytime you start working with a new coach, they obviously don't have any of the context. So all they have is what you bring to the table. So I had pretty clear ideas. If this is what I wanna do, this is where I wanna grow. And I felt pretty stable in all of that.
[00:11:38] Until about two months in when I didn't feel stable at all and I just had the biggest emotional breakdown of none of this feels right in this moment. And it took me so long I couldn't figure out what it was like, I had been doing all the things I had been told by other people to do, or I had been doing the things that I felt like I was supposed to be doing.
[00:12:01] I struggled with my identity as who am I as a business owner because for the last 12 years I've been a wedding photographer, and that was my main point of focus. And it was a big light bulb in the last couple of months when I realized I don't think I wanna do this anymore. And for anyone who has built a business doing one particular thing, and then all of a sudden you realize, I don't think I really want to do very much of this anymore.
[00:12:26] It is scary because I, for 12, 13 years. That's how I identified when someone asked me the first thing I would tell them, I'm a photographer, and now I'm realizing it sounds so easy to say, oh, just make the shift. I'm a coach, I'm a podcast host. But identity-wise, I had no idea who that person was because none of my offers felt in alignment.
[00:12:48] I still felt like I was. Struggling to find my groove as a coach. Who am I? What do I help with? What are the expectations that I have on myself or what are my clients expecting from me? So nothing felt stable and just all of a sudden that, that thing that I had built up that I thought was like doing okay, it like all just crumbled to the ground, which at the time felt really scary.
[00:13:10] But looking back now, hindsight's always 2020 as I realized. was the perfect opportunity for me to be able to just rebuild and restart and clearly the thing I'd built was not sustainable. And so I'm, we're actually, I'm quite grateful now that I went through that, but at the time, well, is not the best feeling
[00:13:29] Kat: I think that's gonna be pretty relatable as well. I have definitely been there. In that moment you suddenly have no answers and anything that you were attached to before that was giving you some sort of stability is just suddenly gone. And I think it's also when it becomes really clear, I mean this even happened to me when I left the acting world to go into entrepreneurship.
[00:13:49] I had attached all of my self-worth and identity in having this really cool job that's very sought after. And so I knew that if I told people what I did, they'd be like, oh wow, that's amazing. I didn't realize that I had nothing else. I did not feel good about myself. So therefore, when I stopped being able to say, oh yeah, I'm a professional actor, I lost myself completely.
[00:14:10] And so I think that yet that same thing with the pivot is like, well, I've built up all of this confidence that is specific to this one thing that I do and this identity. I know who I am in that space, but who the hell am I when I'm not doing this thing? And yeah, it's a little bit of an existential crisis that I am sure a lot of listeners have gone through at some point or at multiple points, cuz I think we go through a few of these evolutions in our life.
[00:14:33] Krista: Yeah. Especially cuz at my identity for that I knew what my deliverables were. I knew what they were looking for. I knew that I knew how to edit, I knew that I knew how to pose. Like all of the things that I needed to do. I knew all of that. But I was starting to shift then from less of like service provider to more like content creator, which is something that I know we talked quite a bit about because I was noticing myself naturally start to shift more into providing values for others, whether it was in the podcast or in one-on-one coaching.
[00:15:00] And I had to accept my responsibility as I, I'm a content creator. Like I am putting content out there that people resonate with, that is helping them, that is helping them work through things. And that was a side of me that I hadn't built up any confidence in that cause I, there are no formulaic deliverables for that. In a camera, I know the settings. I know how I should edit. I know how I should deliver it.
[00:15:25] For clients or for my audience and listener. it's all unknown . Whatever you put out there is what you put out there. And that was really scary to get into something that felt so just unstable at points cuz I'm I like formulas, I like strategies. I like someone to tell me what to do and that I had to embrace that like, Ooh, I guess that's not really gonna be a thing anymore.
[00:15:48] Kat: It's so true, and I don't think many people, I don't know, I don't remember ever being warned that this was a thing when I was moving into more of a coaching space or even the content creation space of... if you have gone from having some sort of career or providing some sort of value that does feel very tangible and finite, where it's like, at the end, I give you a thing.
[00:16:08] So for instance, copywriting was a little bit more like this. If I hand you the copy and you're happy with it and it does what it needs to, I'm done. But the coaching space, or just like sending your podcasts out into the ether. You're like, what do people think? I mean, I feel good about this, but no one's giving me instant feedback. Like, how do I know this is even working? And it can really mess with your head.
[00:16:28] Krista: It does. I still, to this day, I get lots of downloads and listeners. I'm so thrilled. The podcast just reached over 8,000 downloads and to me, 10,000 always felt like this crazy number and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm almost there. But I still don't really get feedback from people. Every once in a while I'll message someone and they'll be like, "oh, I've been listening for so long. This was so helpful."
[00:16:46] And I'm like, oh, it'd be so great if you just like proactively said me that because half the time I'm still putting out these episodes and I'm like, well, people are downloading it. So I guess it's helpful, but... and that was actually something that was interesting and I've noticed this a lot.
[00:16:58] It's, particularly in photography, but I imagine this spans a lot of other fields. Lately, now a lot of people you do see oh, you know, I didn't hear back from my clients when I delivered this. Is this okay? Like we're constantly now being trained to search for that outside acceptance and yep, you're doing a great job.
[00:17:18] And I've very much had to be okay with that, just not being a thing anymore. If it just has to feel good for me and as long as it feels good for me and I feel like I'm putting out content that I'm proud of and that feels aligned, then I've had to change my version of what's enough because I can't base it anymore on someone's reaction or feedback or anything like that. And that shift was also really hard to make.
[00:17:40] Kat: It's massive. And I mean, I feel like this is a perfect time to say, okay, for everyone listening, there's two sides to this lesson. One for the person who's going through this, know that, yeah. This is going to be a thing and it feels really gross, but having that awareness that it's, it is actually very normal. And then realizing that, okay, so how can you start building that stability in yourself , to cope with that sense of instability around you I think is gonna be just really powerful.
[00:18:10] But then also for the person who maybe has been on the receiving end so, for instance, listening to our podcasts. Keep in mind that we are not mind readers and you know, it can be a really beautiful thing. I know we don't often think of it, but if you can remind yourself -when you're consuming any sort of content- is that a lot of love and potentially blood, sweat, and tears goes into the stuff that you are consuming and that we can, we all can take for granted.
[00:18:34] And it can be just such a wonderful thing to create a little bit of pattern, disrupt, do something different and actually reach out and tell that person that you appreciate their content cuz you just have no idea what a difference that could make. Not to say we should rely on it. But I'm just saying like we could actually start to shift things if we all take a little bit of responsibility for also just letting people know when we appreciate their work.
[00:18:56] Krista: And the other thing I think that opens up opportunities for is cuz something I've been really talking a lot with my one one clients is like creating opportunities for yourself. And if there's someone that you really love listening to, you might tell yourself one of two things. Either one oh, they don't need me to they're.
[00:19:11] they so know what they're doing. Like you almost put them on a pedestal and oh, they don't. Who am I to tell them they're doing a great job, which I'm gonna go ahead and tell you that's not the case. Or two, you might just think that it's, it wouldn't make a difference. And so, oh you know, whether I say something or not.
[00:19:26] But by putting yourself out there and by connecting with that person, there could be so many opportunities for growth for you. And it doesn't mean you have to work with them, it doesn't mean, but like just building that connection, that actual one-to-one connection point can open up a lot of doors for you that you would never even think of.
[00:19:42] So if you have someone that you really love listening to or kind of just want in your world in some sort of capacity, yeah, just open up that door and reach out cuz you just don't know what opportunity that could provide for you in the future.
[00:19:55] Kat: So true. And we're all just humans. I think we just forget that it's still, just like the way we've been raised, in this system of like celebrity dom, is that we assume that someone who we're listening to on a podcast or who has a massive number of followers or we see on a screen is somehow some different sort of breed of human and sure, egos can get outta control.
[00:20:13] But for the most part it's still just another human being who just happens to have these followers and they're probably often getting less feedback at that point because of the assumptions that we make about "Oh, they don't need that". No, we all need it cuz we're all fragile little humans.
[00:20:28] Krista: And we all are still every day walking around like making mistakes, doing our best, like just trying to figure things out. So
[00:20:34] Kat: Exactly. Oh my gosh. Okay. So one of the shifts that you have been making aside from actually landing the new clients and seeing that growth there, but was also going through putting up your prices as a coach. Which I think, most of us service providers know that can also be a really weird experience.
[00:20:54] So do you wanna just I guess talk through a little bit about, that, that identity piece and where you were feeling like you didn't have that confidence? Like how was that stalling your growth as a coach. And then also what are some of the shifts that you had to make in order to be able to put up those prices and then start landing some clients at those new rates?
[00:21:13] Krista: It's hard and well, and it's so crazy. Is that right? Like, I've worked with coaches at so many different price points, and so you do start to learn that there really is no, there is no right or wrong, and I kind of knew that. So when I was working with my first client, the price that I charged was so low because truthfully, it was the way that I always tell people is, Especially if you're just starting something new, just go with something that feels good for you.
[00:21:38] Truthfully, tune everything else out and just go with something that you feel comfortable with because you just have to get past that. You gotta have your first client. And so for me it was really low and I knew this is like not where I want to be, but I was like, I also know that this was a client that I was really, genuinely excited to work with. Like it wasn't just like a, oh, you don't wanna pay money for my services. It was like, this really is where I wanna be.
[00:22:02] And so I did it and it allowed me to go through all those awkward, right? What am I doing? I don't know what I'm doing. It allowed me to figure everything out and charge a price that I felt like I could still deliver value without feeling all of this pressure of needing to be this person that I wasn't quite yet. The problem is that after that first client, I was like, okay, I have a little bit more experience. And then the question, where do you go from there?
[00:22:24] Because the first price points easy go with what feels right for you. But now it was like, well, but I'm not there anymore and I know that I've learned more and grown more and can provide more. So now how much do I go up? And then that was like a really hard place for me to be in. So I don't think I quite doubled it, but I did charge quite a bit more.
[00:22:44] And then, , I had that client then referred somebody and then that also started asking more questions, oh, well, but they referred me. So I guess I have to stay the same price because that's what I charge this person. And so all this inner dialogue of what my services should be based on these things that aren't actually accurate.
[00:23:04] So yeah, I struggled with that and then it was like, oh, I have a new client. Well, can I really charge them more? I'm only charging this much And so it was just, I was in this place of, and I've always struggled with this. I think as creatives, as women, as people in general, it's just, it's really hard to charge for something that you're providing, especially when it's service based and there's no clear cost.
[00:23:26] You know, goods or anything like that. So I've always struggled with this, but I mean, even something as simple as through our time together of you just being like, " I think that you need to be charging more", was even just that like permission of like, oh, okay, like I guess I should... and stretching you just even that little bit, right?
[00:23:43] Like the next client, I didn't double my prices again, but I upped it enough where it was like, okay, you know, to backstep a little bit is in my photography business. One thing I did that I did not wanna repeat, but I found myself repeating cuz it was all I knew, was when I built my photography business, I stayed at price points for a really long time because I also was working full-time.
[00:24:02] And so I didn't treat this income in photography as real income. It was like fun money and I could go on trips and invest in my business. And so because of that I didn't continuously raise my prices and it always felt weird. I would have to raise my prices because. , I would find that either I wasn't getting the clients that I wanted or just whatever it was, but I would raise it for a reason and I didn't wanna fall back into those same patterns.
[00:24:24] But of course, because those are the only patterns I knew that's what I kept doing. But it's then allowed me to, okay, let me just increase them a little bit now each time. Doesn't have to be some big incremental raise, and this actually feels. Again, talking about alignment, this feels much better of, I'm just gonna increase it a little bit with each client cuz clearly I'm growing, I'm learning more, I have more resources I can provide.
[00:24:46] I have all of these things. And so it actually, now I'm at a point where, this actually feels good to grow and know that I'm providing more. But yeah it's is, it's a struggle and I'm sure I'll come out with a new program that I'll struggle to create pricing for it. And I'm sure I'll go through the whole pattern all over again.
[00:25:02] Kat: There's always something new. I think the misconception is you deal with the, the money mindset and the financial stuff once and it's, " like, cool, I've got that down". No, heads up. This is gonna continually come up. Cuz they'll always be some new challenge that's going to really sort of have, you have to dig in.
[00:25:18] And it's also, it's that uncertainty piece where we all wanna just have a formula. " Just tell me exactly what it should be so that I can just confidently put that out there". And the money piece is the one that you are never going to get that level of certainty because it's still going to come down to you and who you wanna attract.
[00:25:40] Yes, there's an element of what the market rates are but ultimately knowing that yeah, you charge too little, that could be sabotaging you, but the second you overcharge, that can trigger you into a place of not being in a good place either. And so it's just this constant dance that we have to do, but I just don't think enough people really talk about it.
[00:25:58] And again, it's gonna come down to this, what are the tools and things that you can use internally to create that little bit of stability and some structure... I remember, we were even just breaking down the pricing of a VIP day style offer and how with something like that, you're like, well, I'm only there with the client for a couple of hours. It sounds like that this should be enough.
[00:26:21] But then you start pulling it apart and going, hang on. How much time is it gonna take me to do all of the prep and then the work that I do behind the scenes and then the offboarding work and the act, any extra support. And that's not even taking into consideration your experience level and how much value and you know the time that you're gonna save them.
[00:26:37] But at least starting to just do those calculations is one way of creating a bit of structure and going, oh, if I charge this, I'm only gonna get 30 bucks an hour. Okay. Like suddenly it doesn't sound so much.
[00:26:51] Krista: Well, and the interesting thing, it definitely doesn't go away because I had built a photography business where, and I still charge. I am not gonna say a lot, but I charge a good amount. Where if you were just looking at it as, oh, but you're only here with me for, you know, eight hours on the wedding day, two hours for the engagement.
[00:27:05] If you broke it down by those 10 hours, people would be like, this is astronomical. I can't believe you're charging this. But I understood there's so much more that goes into all of this and that I had at least gotten to a point where I was comfortable with that. But then when it came to this new thing that I was not as confident with, yeah, I really struggled to be able to see the value of that.
[00:27:24] And honestly, the thing is, when you're starting something new, obviously you shouldn't be teaching something, you don't have some sort of experience to be able to help someone with. But if you have the ability and the experience to be able to help someone through something, chances are in the beginning you're gonna probably even providing even more.
[00:27:40] You're probably gonna spend more time in the prep. You're probably gonna spend more time going over and creating things for them. So Really respecting that there's gonna be a ton of value, and not that you are gonna get lazy and do less for clients later, but just giving yourself that if this feels a little bit low, remember I'm probably gonna be putting in even more than I typically would. And then taking that into consideration as well.
[00:28:02] Kat: That's really good advice. That's like a funny one cuz I used to get panicked with earlier coaching clients of like how like I'm charging this amount, like how can I guarantee that they're gonna get the value? And obviously there is no guarantee because the results ultimately are on,
[00:28:19] Krista: dependent on their action .
[00:28:20] Kat: Exactly! The thing that I did though to help myself just chill out a little bit, and again, allow myself to send the proposal was like, hang on. Do you believe that you are the kind of person who will go to the ends of the earth to try and deliver what they need? As in, if you don't have an answer, are you gonna go and find it?
[00:28:41] If you don't have an existing resource, like resource, will you create it? Are you gonna be there cheering them on, putting every, your entire heart and mind into this? It was like, Yes, I am. And that had, that was my this just has to be enough because I don't have enough experience to feel super confident in how it's all gonna play out with them.
[00:29:00] And even if I had experience, with coaching clients it's hit and miss because if they just don't do the work, it doesn't matter how amazing you are as a coach, but at least just going, well, I know that I am gonna show up and give absolutely everything and let that. Let there be enough for a while as you build up your toolkit.
[00:29:18] Krista: Yeah, absolutely. And that's been something that's been really helpful for me. And you're gonna be too expensive for some people. You're gonna be too little for some people. And I think it's just recognizing that. And I feel really grateful, and I know we're not going too much into this, but like I've created structure in my business where I have the podcast, I have avenues of reaching people where the right people will find me and they'll listen to me and they'll know I think this is my person.
[00:29:40] And if that's your person, then they'll probably figure out a way of baking it work and just not taking it so personally. If someone comes to me and I'm too expensive for them, I personally still think I'm undercharging, but I'm also - I'm comfortable with where I'm at as I'm in this growth stage. And so if someone comes to me and they say, I'm too expensive, I truly don't take it personally or think I need to lower my prices for them, cuz I'm like, well, okay, like this just isn't a right fit and that's totally fine.
[00:30:05] Kat: Yeah, exactly. Oh my goodness. There's so many rabbit holes that I wanna go down, but I'm gonna try and stay focused. I would also love to move into, I mean, it's still related, but starting to shift into talking about your business model and how that's kind of evolved, especially I think it's really interesting what you were saying about how you had this idea of how things were going to look and what you were trying to build, and then what has happened instead. Even just the way that you've been looking at your brand and starting to sort of consolidate things and approach your, hint hint new program.
[00:30:38] Krista: Yeah, I'll try and keep it kind of concise cuz it's been a long time coming. But when I launched the podcast, She Calls Her Shots. I originally had this idea of, okay, well I need to separate my photography from the coaching and this side of it, cuz it does feel different enough that I wanna have different landing sites for people.
[00:30:53] So I had my photography page that was already established in there and then I created, shecallshershots.com as my, well I guess this is gonna be my brand. And it's interesting because, I didn't really want that to be the brand, but it was the podcast name. And so it was just the thing that made the most sense to me as if people Google stuff, it'll all come up.
[00:31:11] So I built it. I spent a lot of time doing that. And in the meantime, during all of that, I kind of fell into learning from a lot of different people and the things that worked for them and kind of okay. Someone says that memberships are the way to go. I'm gonna build a membership and I chuckle cuz you know where this is going, and I was like... oh, I was all in.
[00:31:32] And I'm the type of person where I'm like, I'm gonna go all in. I'm not gonna just do this little tiny thing like I'm investing in this. And oh boy did I invest in it. I invested a ton of money, a ton of time, all these things. And it's funny cuz I think that some of my money blocks, oddly enough, played into me wanting to build a membership because, I only have to charge people like $27, and I know that I'm gonna be crazy invested into making sure that this is a place where they get a lot of value and...
[00:32:00] Huh. Funny enough, it's really hard to get people into a low priced offer like that because it's so low priced that they don't think there's gonna be a lot of value in it. And so it was this constant slog of just like me spending all of this time and energy for just these few members that I was so grateful that they were a part of it.
[00:32:19] But not making nearly enough money for the amount of time and energy that I was putting into it. And so, the energy of that started to fizzle down and I was feeling pretty defeated after all of that. And because of it, I'm grateful because that made me realize I really wanted to lean into one-on-one.
[00:32:36] Which was also scary because that was a lot more money. But that experience made me realize, okay, this is not the right thing for me to be doing. And because I was then able to go into focusing on one-on-one, I was able to actually get more impact with the people I was working with because I was actually investing one-on-one time with them, which I think helped to build up my confidence again.
[00:32:54] Cause it was pretty low after all of that. And then, yeah, so transitioning through that... I think it was just, it was the confidence build. It was the really coming back to, okay, you know what? I know that there's all these ways that I could be doing all of this, but like what, what feels right for me right now?
[00:33:10] What do I feel like I can talk about and how can I talk about it in a way that doesn't feel so formulaic where I'm feel like I have to have a whole strategy and whole launch plan, like none of this is working for me right now. And so I just started organically talking about coaching and like I would talk about it on the podcast, I'd mention it, oh, I have spots opening up.
[00:33:27] Like I made it as easy as possible for me to just build it into a part of my day-to-day. And sure enough, I started booking clients and it just became this weird, I say weird because it felt weird for me at the time. Like This feels... easy. I stopped trying to do all of the things that I thought that I was supposed to do, and I just let it be easy and I let it be simple and it like started to grow and it's slowly been growing over time.
[00:33:55] And because of that, the energy of how I show up has also been different because I'm no longer in that space of... again, trying to grab and, oh, I need to get money and I need to get clients and I need to, I need all this stuff. And so I'm just creating from a different space and showing up from a different space, which has then led to this entire new rebrand.
[00:34:15] I now have an entire brand around, Hey Krista Marie, and it's my name and it feels good and I can show up as me. And I don't feel like it's this one brand that I have to hide behind. It's just this thing that feels so easy to show up. It just, I think like the thing I've learned is let it be easy, and it doesn't mean that the results are gonna come easily.
[00:34:34] It doesn't mean that it's gonna grow quickly, but let yourself have the space that you need to be able to just show up and invite people to the things that you wanna invite them to without feeling all the pressure of all of the things you think you should be doing.
[00:34:49] Kat: Oh my...
[00:34:49] Krista: I hope that makes sense. I feel like I just rambled...
[00:34:52] Kat: it makes so much sense and there are just so many different things that I wanna highlight. Cuz again, this is a very relatable piece. And of course I laugh you know, my story, like I, we've had parallel journeys where I had even done the exact same thing where I was like, I'm gonna start with the membership. I even knew at the time I was like, cuz I just wanna make something that's really affordable for people. Because someone's just I really felt like I owed it to people who couldn't afford it to provide that.
[00:35:21] But oh my goodness, yes, there's a lot. So this is also connecting to a comment that you made a little bit earlier about even just like the consuming all of the advice from everyone and having that sort of start to create your strategy. Because I know personally, like you were saying how you've got all the courses and the things and I think we all do. So this is never like a judge-y place.
[00:35:43] Krista: Oh yeah. No.
[00:35:45] Kat: But I would love to know how has that shifted now as well? Like from going from consuming all the things and being like, oh yes, take note. I need this tactic. What would you now say, like, how would you describe your current strategy?
[00:35:57] Krista: It's actually not that at all. Yeah. So it used to be, I mean, if I showed you my tab right now, there are probably 30 courses that I purchased over the time of the last eight to 10 years in my business when online courses started being a thing. And that's no joke. I've maybe finished... it's definitely gonna be less than five and it's probably less than three if I had to be completely honest with you.
[00:36:21] And here's the reality of it though. I think that baby business owner, me needed to buy some of these things like, and that's the thing is I never tell people, in the beginning, I'm not telling people like, don't ever buy anything. I actually have a podcast episode that I recorded where it was like the truth behind when you invest in courses.
[00:36:38] I just think that. Don't buy it willy-nilly because someone tells you that this is gonna be the thing that grows your business. If that's why you're buying this course, I would dig in a little bit deeper as to is this something that I actually need? And that's what I think has changed for me the most is that it's not that I don't buy things now, it's just that I.
[00:36:56] I figure out why. Why? What's the intention behind buying this? Is it because I'm sold on this belief that I'm gonna buy this one thing and then it's gonna be the thing that makes my business explode? Or is it because this is a skill that I actually really wanna learn how to develop more? And that's why I'm buying it, then great you know, invest in it if you feel like you have the means and the ability and the time to be able to do it.
[00:37:16] But I used to just constantly knee jerk reaction, buy these things because I was sold on, oh, this is gonna be the thing, this is gonna be the thing that like, helps me grow my business. And I've bought enough courses to know that at this point I'm like, that's not how this works. So now I've learned I actually don't need... the biggest shifts I've had have been working with coaches, and you know, as a coach I always tell people like, the thing that you need?
[00:37:40] I know this is hard to hear, but you already have it. The hardest part is actually being able to dig deep and find it and bring it out and let it come out confidently and showcase that... but we just wanna fill it by oh, but I'm just gonna learn this, or I'm gonna learn how to do this better. I'm, and it's ugh... yes, and: you also have enough that you need already, or enough that you already have to be able to get started. You don't need that in order to start. So I think that's been the biggest shift for me.
[00:38:11] Kat: Yeah. I mean, again, it comes back to this this quest for certainty to help us offset the inadequacy that we feel of " I'm probably not enough". And also like that, like we were talking about, the discomfort of being in that place of being the beginner and having things getting started... let's be real, it's painful.
[00:38:32] You put content out, like we said, blood, sweat, tears into content that you are publishing week upon week and a view here and there, lucky if you get a comment... like it's crickets and you're not getting the results. That feels really uncomfortable. And so we -our minds just quickly jump in and go, "this is a really unpleasant place to be. There's gotta be a quicker way of doing it. Like, how do we get out of here? Oh, I've heard that SEO is the thing."
[00:39:01] Or "Oh, it's Pinterest". "Oh, it's it's gonna be TikTok". And so you quickly jump into that and push down that feeling of ickiness to distract yourself while you're consuming this new content. And then you start the next platform and realize it's exactly the same thing of just like putting yourself out there. But then the difference is like with this approach is, we are never getting to that point where we tip the scales and we actually start to see the results coming back like that. That compound interest of just showing up and chipping away at a day upon day.
[00:39:32] Instead, we have a trail of you know, projects and platforms that we've, like halfheartedly started and then dropped, or we're trying to keep them all up and we're exhausted and burnt out just trying to manage all of the things and what you've kind of shown is you've brought it back to basics, and it's not to say you're doing way less cuz I know that you are very committed to your marketing. Like you were someone that , I'm like, yes, Krista, she walks the talk when it comes to content creation.
[00:40:00] But what I see is that you kind of just brought it back to go, you know what, like my podcast, it is the thing. And I'm gonna continue to give that the most of my time and attention and energy because I know it's gonna pay off. But then also how the thing that we've been working on together is hang on, but what if there was also just like some emails going out what if we just started growing an email list so that we also have another way of having a conversation with these people and it can potentially be, two sided.
[00:40:26] And then the simple act of okay, what does it take to, to start an email list? And it's probably not as big a deal, as we think it is. I'm laughing because I've done the same thing, where you go, an email list means I need the most sexy freebie. Like it has to have all the bells and whistles and I'm gonna have to have this landing page and this and that. And we went through that with you and we're like, could we maybe just start with
[00:40:48] Krista: nothing?
[00:40:49] Well, you know, and it's so funny, and two things about that specifically is that when you told me you know what, if you just have sign up for my email list at the top of your website and what if you just said that on your podcast? In my head I'm like, that's never gonna work, but, okay.
[00:41:03] So I did it and I created a little like interlude in the podcast that like invites people to it. And within two weeks, two to three weeks, I had someone, the first person who just joined my email list without any prompts. And I just remember being like, oh my gosh. Like I, I remember I I showed it to my husband, I was like, they joined and they didn't download anything.
[00:41:23] Like they
[00:41:23] Kat: Oh my gosh, you didn't
[00:41:24] Krista: up for my list
[00:41:26] Kat: the.
[00:41:27] Krista: And it's just like I had this big party in my head cause I was , oh, I guess it can be easy. And again cuz you forget that in all of the content that I've been putting out there, yes I'm not getting people proactively reaching out to me. But it doesn't mean it's not resonating with them and it doesn't mean that they don't want ways of connecting with me more.
[00:41:46] And it was that realization of oh, I guess I can do that. And the thing that I was gonna mention that kind of pertains to this is another thing that you have helped me work on is the low-hanging fruit. Because sometimes I can jump to the more complicated things of ways of doing things. And that shift has helped me start thinking about that with my clients too cuz I know that I also have that tendency and they also have that tendency.
[00:42:09] And it's really just getting back to okay, awesome. If you need more clients or if you need this right now, let's not jump to this new difficult marketing strategy. Let's figure out what you already have that we can work with to help get you there. And you then start to experience those little tiny wins, which again, it's, it all comes back to confidence.
[00:42:30] Because it's not that you couldn't implement that really big strategy, but there's a good chance that you're gonna implement it, nobody's gonna sign up, you're not gonna make any money. You just invested all this time and energy. You're more in debt than you were before. And so it's like you could go that route, or we could go the route where you start to see these little tiny wins and you build up that confidence and you realize, oh, this doesn't have to be complicated. I can grow a business in a way that feels good.
[00:42:52] And so both of those I feel are kind of intertwined where it's like just be easy and don't feel like you have to overcomplicate it.
[00:43:00] Kat: Yeah. Oh, I think that's probably gonna be the title of the episode. Something along those lines. Cuz it's just so against the grain. Like we just don't think it could, like why, like how could it be enough? And you and I have had this conversation before of, but if I'm not giving them something, if I'm not incentivizing the email list with a fancy freebie or like even your... we won't go into all the details - you can reveal it later on if you wanna give all the details.
[00:43:25] But even when developing a program, we immediately, how much can we stuff in here to make sure that it's juicy and appealing enough? Because when, what it comes down to is we're worried that people aren't gonna find us to be enough, like us, like you the human, me the human. We're like no, we can't be like, we have to almost trick them into signing up for this thing and then we'll show them we're amazing.
[00:43:47] But yeah, so I think it's an exercise in a little bit of self-trust almost to just see what happens. Cause what have you got to lose by? Starting an email list with nothing. Okay. If like in a couple of months time no one's signing up, it's not working, cool. Now we go how can we tweak this? But at least you'd already overcome the resistance of even putting it out there, which I know was a big thing for you of -it was on the to-do list, but it just felt too big.
[00:44:09] Krista: And also one thing I've been talking about, I actually just talked about this yesterday in my group coaching call is that sometimes we have this expectation of let's say for example, you are starting to do like free online workshops. Let's say once a month, you're like, okay, I wanna provide really great content. I wanna like start by doing these workshops.
[00:44:27] Let's say your expectation is, oh, I'm gonna. People that wanna work with me. And that's how I'm gonna measure success is I'm gonna get people that sign up that wanna work with me. What if that's not actually the outcome that you're supposed to get from this? What if the outcome you're supposed to get is even if nobody shows up, I'm gonna get really good at practicing how to do these workshops.
[00:44:48] And I'm raising my hand because this was me with some of my membership stuff, was I wasn't necessarily getting all the results and getting all this money and getting people to come in, but I got so comfortable teaching via video and being able to edit the videos and put them up and upload them on Vimeo and send them out to the email list and set up the email sequence.
[00:45:06] Like none of that would've happened if I wouldn't have gone through and done all these things. So it's just sometimes reframing our expectation of, this is the thing I think I'm supposed to get from this, but what if it's not that at all? What if it's just that you're building the muscles to be able to do these things so that way you're continuously adding to your own toolkit of things that you're capable of doing.
[00:45:25] And I think that has been a big realization for me, is that it doesn't always have to come back to money and clients. Sometimes the other skills you're building are just as valuable cuz they're gonna be the things that'll actually help you when you are doing the thing that you're meant to be doing.
[00:45:40] Kat: What a mic drop moment. It's so... this is it. And we often, I think we just get so fixated on the thing that we are creating, needing to be successful, that all we are doing is just looking at whether or not it's working. But ultimately like that one thing, whether or not it's successful, like it could be a huge success or not.
[00:45:58] That does not determine whether you are going to have long-term success. And if you are gonna live the life that you want to live. The only thing you need to worry about is becoming the person who is going to be able to bring this vision of yours to life. And yeah, sometimes it happens out of order. We're like, Oh, great like I've got all of these incredible skills and like I don't have any clients to use them with right now.
[00:46:23] Don't worry. The clients will come, just focus on like, what's the next thing that needs to happen? And so yeah, you were already shaping yourself in the process of going, yep, I'm good at this, I'm good at this. You knew your future self was going to be able to use all of these things and now it was just a matter of okay, a bit more alignment and then being able to create an environment where you could actually invite the right people in and create the right offer like container for yourself, so you get to show up feeling your best as opposed to forcing yourself to fit into some sort of other mold.
[00:46:53] Krista: Yeah, and it's been a journey. I mean, even back from when I started the podcast, like I feel like I had to start from the very beginning. I had to get comfortable just speaking into a mic and sharing my opinion. That was like growth moment number one in my head I kept thinking, I need to get more confident at coaching.
[00:47:06] Yes, that is true. And I just had to learn how to like, Feel comfortable speaking like this to people. And so that was like growth number one. Growth number two was recording things and sending it out to people. And then step number three was, oh, I'm gonna teach live in front of a group of people. And it's like my coaching journey started the first podcast episode that I recorded, and not because I had all the knowledge of how to be a coach, but it was like I had to start with that to get me comfortable to where I would eventually be.
[00:47:38] And yeah, and it's it's so hard to think about that in the moment of, oh, this is actually really shaping me into where I wanna go. Cuz we tend to just discredit if it's not bringing in money. And here's the honest thing, right? Listen, for someone who has been in a position of struggling with money, if money is something you're struggling with, figure out other ways for you to make an income.
[00:47:57] And this is stuff that we worked on together too, is don't put all that pressure into the thing that you're just launching because you're doing yourself such a disservice of not giving it the time that it needs to marinate. Marinate. I'm using all these words since we've worked together, but let it marinate and grow into what it's gonna be.
[00:48:14] But you're doing yourself such a disservice by putting that pressure on it. Figure out other things that you can do that you need to get you to a place that you feel comfortable. But take that pressure off because you're gonna need time. Like it's gonna need time to grow. You need time to grow.
[00:48:27] Kat: Thank you for saying that. That's a really good point cuz it's something that I forget to remind everyone of because you know, you and I are our parallel journeys, but like I've been telling you about how I'm sort of in the process of my next evolution and the weirdest part is I kind of thought that, oh well, I'm at this point now, I've done all so much other work that surely this next evolution, it's all just gonna come together and I'm gonna go ta-da, look at me.
[00:48:52] New Year? New me. Well, I rebranded like back in, it was March, 2022, so we're coming up on a year since the rebrand, and I still haven't launched my new offer suite because I realize that this next iteration of what I'm doing requires time. It's a process of integrating and like synthesizing everything that I've been learning over the last 10 years of marketing and entrepreneurship. And it just takes as long as it takes.
[00:49:20] And sometimes things are gonna be quick, sometimes they're not. But yeah, if you are feeling that rush and that panic... I've certainly been there where you're like, oh my God, I have to launch it in three weeks cuz I have no way of paying the bills. That is not how you're gonna end up creating the thing that you wanna create.
[00:49:35] That is how you're gonna just do a Kat and put the next thing into the world that the second it's live, you go dammit, it can already be so much better. Oh, I need to redo it and kick yourself for just not letting yourself take the time the first time around. So safety, stability and creating that structure for yourself where you can just let that thing grow in its own time because geez, when it's ready, it's gonna be so magical. Whereas if you try and force it prematurely it's not gonna feel good for you and it's not gonna be received in the same way by other people. So it's it's kind of a lose lose situation.
[00:50:09] Krista: Absolutely. Giving yourself time. And I think on the other end, but related to that is, you know, like I launched the she calls her shots brand with one-on-one coaching. And I even knew at the time when I launched it, because I was so early in this, I was like I'm just gonna put this out there and not be super attached to it just yet, but just know that it's there and I'm gonna figure it out as I go.
[00:50:30] And this is the first, rebrand for at least the coaching side of the business where I actually am now I'm to the point where I'm like, this is dialed in. It's locked in, but it took me that year and a half of actually getting to that point where I needed to get to where I wanted to go.
[00:50:46] So yeah, it's like I feel you're like at this journey, and I'm like at this, like your couple journeys ago, but it's like you, you have to start somewhere. But don't be so attached to it that you don't allow yourself space to change or time to be able to iterate on it.
[00:51:02] Kat: Absolutely. Oh my gosh. Well, I could have spoken with you all day clearly but we obviously need to wrap it up. Because also this is gonna be one of my longest episodes of all time, otherwise, although I don't think people will complain. But to do so let's just quickly look at the future.
[00:51:18] Give me a snapshot: so what are you working on right now? And I guess the big thing is, how are you feeling about the future now that you are, like we said, kicking off 2023 in a very different place. So how do you feel now looking forward?
[00:51:30] Krista: Yeah, I mean it's such a different place that I'm in. I think if I had to like kind of sum it up into the difference between me now and the me a year and a half or so ago, is that me now is actually... I feel like before I, I put my head in the sand for a lot of different things. I put my head in the sand when it came to money.
[00:51:45] I put my head in the sand when it came to like tracking things or looking at things because I just would've rather ignored it and pretended it didn't exist. Whereas me now is actually I'm like feeling very curious about, okay, how can I start tracking my money each month? How can I start tracking some of these things?
[00:52:00] How can I really look at my business and figure out how it's growing and where it's going. And I think just that awareness is gonna be so crucial for actually allowing me to grow. But yeah, I think that I'm feeling so much better. I feel like when I wrote down my goals this year, they were actually goals that I was really intentional and thought about.
[00:52:19] And then I made a plan around, around how I was actually going to do them. And so I'm implementing that and integrating that into my weeks as I go. And so, yeah, I think it's really just taking my head outta the sand and actually making sure that I'm doing the things that I say that I wanna do because the things that I'm doing are things that actually feel good for me. So that's, yeah, that's kind of where I'm at.
[00:52:42] Kat: That is awesome, and if people want to go connect with you, learn more about you, work with you, where are the best places? Obviously I'll have all the links to, but best places to connect with you, find you, et cetera.
[00:52:56] Krista: Yeah, well, you can see my brand new website. Heykristamarie.com. Labor of Love. I feel like I actually put together it pretty quickly, but I think that's because it has been such a long time coming. Heykristamarie.com -you can learn about, so I have my one-on-one coaching, I just launched my brand new group coaching program, Amplify. Specifically towards creatives, photographers online business owners that are looking for that initial support, right?
[00:53:18] Like maybe you've never worked with a coach before. The reason I created this program is cuz when I was first looking for a coach, I didn't want the really low ticket, but I couldn't invest in the really high ticket. And so wanted something that kind of matched where I was. And so if you feel like that resonates with where you are, I would love to have you look at Amplify.
[00:53:35] But I have my podcast, She Calls Her Shots every week putting out episodes about growing a business as a creative. So I'd love for you to join me there and send me a message on Instagram at @heykristamarie, and just let me know if you listen to an episode. So just reach out, say hello. I will message you back. I can promise you that, probably with a voice message cuz that's my love language. So I'd love to have anyone connect with.
[00:53:56] Kat: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This conversation was just, it was so powerful and I'm really, I'm hoping, I'm trusting that it has resonated with the right people who needed to hear this right now. So thank you for being so transparent in your share and also being an inspiration because, I mean, it's been a matter of six months, really. Which I know when you're in it, it can feel like a really long time. You're like, time has stopped. I'm not moving.
[00:54:21] But really six months to go from that place where you are in, of stuckness and the burnout and just the, oh my gosh, what am I doing? To this expansive place of, oh, I now know that I can just create what I wanna create. That's massive. So like, kudos to you for doing the work though, cuz this was, I just show up to the calls, provide some bits and pieces, but you were very committed to the process and to really pushing through the discomfort for as long as it took to get to that place. So well done and thank you.
[00:54:50] Krista: Thank you. Well, and just one last little note for anyone, if you feel like you're in that space where you feel like it all of a sudden crept up on you that you don't recognize this place that you're in, I just want you to know that that change is coming. Like just remember that it is not going to be this way forever and I don't have some magical thing that I did that got me through it. It just was giving myself the time and space to feel the things and recognize the things... and so just know that it is coming and that this is not a forever thing for you.
[00:55:19] Kat: Amen, . All right, well thank you again and we'll be hearing you on your own airwaves very soon.
[00:55:26] Krista: Yes. Thank you so much, Kat.
[00:55:28] Kat: Bye.